Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Here is a great quote from C.S. Lewis about Original Sin (from Mere Christianity):

What Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea that they could “be like
gods”–could set up on their own as if they had created themselves—be their own masters—invent some
sort of happiness for themselves outside God, apart from God.
And out of that hopeless attempt has come nearly all that we call human history–money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires,
slavery—the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him
happy.

I'm going to guess that C.S.Lewis didn't actually consult a bible before stating that. At least not the Judeo/Christian bible. If he had, he would have noticed that slavery is not only allowed but regulated by biblical rules, thereby making slavery holy.

Seriously s2dbaker? One of the greatest stories of the Bible is Exodus, a freedom from slavery. Jesus came to set us free from the slavery to sin. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you is present throughout the Scriptures. You would have to be crazy to read the Bible and think it was in any way shape or form making slavery holy, especially the type of modern slavery that comes to our minds today when we think about this evil.

Seriously Evenbob? Have you been paying attention. The fact that you and I were born sinners is not up for debate, I have proven it to myself and others many times as I am sure you have as well. What original sin is saying is that your sinful self is NOT truly who you are. You were created to be perfect and live in a perfect place, that is why you continue to strive to be better and when you don't you feel miserable. Human beings and our world were made to be awesome but we have been weakened and corrupted by sin, this is not an intellectual concept it is reality.

Quote: FrGamble

You simply cannot understand the human person without asking why we even have a concept of perfection when so much of what we experience is broken and difficult?

Oh, but that's easy: that's what human culture and civilization has been doing ever since there was such a thing as human culture and civilization.

In their "natural state," people are hunter gatherers much like most modern primates. They move around an area year-round following their sources of food. But it dind't take much to change things, such as finding and then building shelter, accumulating surplus food, preserving it, trading it, etc. Everything humanity does is make life easier or more pleasant, by improving on what is naturally available. And this includes improving ourselves as well.

No gods required.

BTW, a vice all cultures fall into eventually is to believe they invented or developed all that is good, while all that's bad was invented by others, or corrupted from the good thing we invented in the first place. It is no surprise Christianity is no different. The turth is all cultures have their good and bad points. Some are mostly bad, say like Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Theocratic Iran, etc. And others are mostly good, and here there are too many examples, I'm glad to say, to even bring in any as examples.

Quote: FrGamble

Seriously s2dbaker?

Seriously FrGamble. Read your bible. It's full of evil.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that you and I were born sinners is not up for debate, I have proven it to myself and others many times as I am sure you have as well. What original sin is saying is that your sinful self is NOT truly who you are. You were created to be perfect and live in a perfect place, that is why you continue to strive to be better and when you don't you feel miserable. Human beings and our world were made to be awesome but we have been weakened and corrupted by sin, this is not an intellectual concept it is reality.

This is a very interesting take (though I would call it a concept; perhaps our definitions differ) on original sin I had not heard before; I find it more inspiring than the discussion to this point. Thanks, FrGamble.

There is a lot of stuff out there about the bible and slavery. As usual, Wikipedia provides some form of a summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery


But, as the topic of discussion is original sin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

I think the concept of original sin and inherited sin makes no sense. Perhaps if it were framed more like Hindu karma it might make more sense, but as it is, I find the concept of being born a sinner distasteful.

I think you have some interesting opinions, Father Gamble, and I am glad to see someone who is devoutly religious but not a literalist. I think it is a vocal minority who make a bad name for the religious in general.

Quote: Dalex64

I find the concept of being born a sinner distasteful..

In the extreme. It's a gimmick; create a problem,
so you can sell the solution.

Problem: Oops, we're all born sinners, no way
out of it. Solution: Organized religion. Stick
with us, give us your loyalty and your money,
and you're home free.

Convince me the entire vast universe was created
just to get mankind to convert to a religion and
I'll sign up immediately. It's so preposterous that
the mind literally boggles at the folly of it.

I find the concept of being a sinner in general distasteful, but that doesn't make it not true.

Really all of us, religious or not, have to try to deal with this distasteful reality that we are not who we want to be. How do we solve the dilemma of why we are not who we want to be and answer the question how do we become that good and perfect person we are striving for?

Quote: FrGamble

I find the concept of being a sinner in general distasteful, but that doesn't make it not true.

Really all of us, religious or not, have to try to deal with this distasteful reality that we are not who we want to be. How do we solve the dilemma of why we are not who we want to be and answer the question how do we become that good and perfect person we are striving for?

How can a newborn baby be anything less than perfect?

It has exercised no free will, and can not have made any sinful choices.

It can not choose to be someone that it is not, or strive to be something better.

I am speaking of being born a sinner, not being a sinner and striving to make yourself better.

to try to phrase it differently,

A newborn baby is all that it is, and can not strive to be anything else. How can something so innocent, which has not made any choices, be born with sin?

Sin is about free will, about choices. If there were no free will, no reason, there could be no sin. A baby has made no choices. Therefore, a baby is without sin.


What it comes down to is a faith based belief that we are born sinners, and there is no way to prove or refute that... unless you prove that there is no such thing as sin.


to go further afield, I think telling completely innocent children that they are sinners and need to repent is wrong. Why not just teach them to strive to be good, to continue to do what is right? I do not like a guilt-based motivation system. that might be cherry-picking certain faiths and denominations, though, but "Religion" is a big word, and it only takes a little black ink to turn a can of white paint to gray.

Great post Dalex.

Original Sin is, for all the good reasons you mentioned, NOT a personal sin. It is not a choice we make, it is an inheritance of a certain weakness in us. The Church would say that we really cannot sin till the age of reason so you could still think of that precious beautiful innocent baby as without sin if we understand sin as it is commonly thought of and as you expressed it. No one should ever tell a child they are sinners and need to repent because they would be wrong! It is nothing the child did wrong; it is the brokenness of humanity they are born into. As I mentioned before this is the easiest of teachings to prove - simply ask yourself is there anyone who has not sinned? Just reading the newspaper gives us plenty of evidence about the weakness inherent in us as human beings.

The other thing original sin does is it motivates us to do good because it shows that sin is not who we truly are, it is a sickness or a corruption. You were created to be good and perfect, sin came into the world, and now with God's help we are returning back or recovering who we truly are.