Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I think we do know murder is wrong from birth.

No, we don't. If we did, we wouldn't have to teach children ethics at all, ever.

Quote: Face

You can say slavery is never right. I'd agree, which kind of throws our entire government and its tax system into question, but let's not muddy the waters.

Good one. I'll tackle it later.

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All those slavers, those Christian slavers, must have been committing mortal sin.

Based on their twisted moral code, they were.

But slavery and slave owners were not all of one piece, either.

There's an anecdote about the emperor Augustus. At dinner in the estate of a nobleman, a slave broke an expensive crystal goblet. Enraged, the nobleman ordered the slave thrown in a pond filled with lampreys. The slave begged the emperor for protection; whereupon Augustus ordered his host to gather all his crystal goblets and smash them.

There's no way to know whether this actually happened. But the fact the story exists tells you something about the Roman view of morality concerning slaves. And I can't help but think even some Christian slave owners were fair and decent to their slaves. This does not mean they were not engaged in a very immoral action, but it ameliorates it somewhat.

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Are they in Heaven?

Of course not. But if it's any consolation, they're not in Hell, either. there being no Heaven nor Hell for them, or anyone, to go to.

I was worried that I wasn’t going to get to respond to things until Sunday because there are a lot of weddings, baptisms, and sick calls for me this Saturday. Then the sprinkler system in the Church Hall decided to go off for no apparent reason and here I am early in the morning unable to sleep.

We have made great progress and it seems that almost everyone, I’m looking at you EvenBob, have expressed agreement that there are objective moral truths. The example we keep using is slavery. We all seem to recognize that no matter how much it is practiced, voted upon, or accepted - it was, is, and always will be evil. We cannot at any time claim that slavery was a righteous and just act. We could also use many other examples such as genocide, abuse of children, rape, murder, lying, stealing, etc.

So recognizing this some other questions have arisen:

Quote: Dalex

How do we know we now understand the true unchanged morality?

This is again why I was hesitant to bring up the scientific truth analogy in regards to morality. There is one unchanging truth in science, sometimes we have discovered it and other times it is still out there waiting for us to discover it. It is not changing for us, it is truth in all its glory waiting to be discovered. In science we grope along making new discoveries, performing ever more intricate and exciting experiments to arrive at truth, it is a slow but sure process.

The difference in discovering the true and unchanging morality is that we already know it. It is within us already and it is more akin to archaeology. We dust it off and uncover it often with the help of religion, sacred texts, art, music, stories, history, philosophy, and coming to better understand who we are as a unique and amazing species. Because it is something that is ingrained in us, which we did not create ourselves, it is often something that we prefer to keep buried or parts of it at least. The unchanging truth of morality can cut us to the quick when somehow, maybe in watching a play or reading the Bible, it is dusted off for us and we are forced to look at it.

This is how I think we can know we now understand the true unchanged morality. The same issues we are confronted with today have confronted humanity since the beginning. It is all the same morality that has always been there. There are some parts we have rediscovered and now look at unflinchingly proud that slavery is outlawed (but sadly continued), but there are other parts of this unchanging morality we cover over or have yet to courageously dust it off and deal with.

Quote: Nareed

No, we don't. If we did, we wouldn't have to teach children ethics at all, ever.

Narred was responding to my insistence that we are not natural born killers. We should teach children ethics for sure and much more of it!!! However, I maintain that if children are brought up by themselves they will not become murderers. The only way you make a murderer is by teaching hate, violence, and by encouraging people to fight against our weakened default to be good. This is not to say people don’t kill in the midst of a rage or some heated passion when their reason is overcome by emotion. We universally know what is good but because of Original Sin this knowledge is sometimes hidden within us and we need help to not only discover it, but to live by it. So by all means teach ethics, we need all the help we can get – especially if God forbid you do not have religion.

Quote: Face

If they are in Heaven, then morality must shift to allow them to do so. Or are they in Hell? Because ignorance of the law is no excuse, and they were committing atrocities, and could have never repented because they had no idea. If this is the case, then morality is indeed some concrete force outside of us and there is absolutely no way possible to know if we have it right now.

Leave it to Face to bring up some interesting points as always. There is really no need to make the distinction between a Christian slave owner or a atheistic one in regards to this thought provoking question. Are they in Heaven or Hell? Slavery is evil and ignorance of the law is indeed no excuse. Ignorance is not an excuse especially because we already know deep down it is wrong. I don’t care what you think the Bible says about slavery; if you are lynching or whipping a human person to the brink of death you know you are doing wrong. If this is not repented of as a Christian or an atheist you are in BIG trouble. However, it is not morality shifting that gives them a chance it is mercy! If you are ignorant you are still guilty, but you are less culpable morally. I think we talked about this a while ago in regards to cannibalism or even murder. If you are forced to do something, it is of course still objectively wrong; meaning the action is still bad, but your guilt or culpability can be greatly lessened – sometimes completely removed. This is really what ethics and morality is all about. It is not trying to argue that killing is wrong, everyone knows that, it is about at what times is killing another person more understandable or forgivable. If society around you accepts it, if religion has failed to prick your conscience (to its shame), if the laws support you, then slavery is still as evil as it ever was but your culpability is surely diminished and Heaven can be yours with the ever available mercy of God.

Quote: Evenbob

If that's all sin is, who cares, it's no big deal.

So you do recognize sin exists, its just that 'serious regrettable faults, offenses, or omissions' don't really bother you?

Quote: FrGamble

Slavery is evil and ignorance of the law is indeed no excuse. Ignorance is not an excuse especially because we already know deep down it is wrong.

I don't think they believed at the time that it was wrong. It's pretty clear they had rules and regulations for dealing with slavery, just like we have rules and regulations now dealing with involuntary servitude, normal employment, and (gasp) taxes.

Some of those things some of us now think of as wrong. Some time ago, most of society believed all of those things were just fine.

If it is so deep down that no one believes it, then it is unrevealed, so to speak, and it might as well not even exist.

The point I am trying to reinforce here is what society perceives as right and wrong, and what people believe to be right and wrong with all of their hearts, has shifted over time and continues to change.

What is the difference between practiced moral truth and absolute moral truth, and how do we know our current practiced and believed moral truth is the same thing as the absolute moral truth?

If our morals change to include something new, has the absolute moral truth changed, or has it just become revealed more to us? Will you say this new thing is something everybody already believed, deep down?

Is recreational sex a sin and absolute moral truth that most people in society now ignore? I think on this, deep down as you can go, people have different opinions. They can't both be the absolute moral truth.

That leads me to another conclusion, which I want to give more thought before posting.

Quote: FrGamble

So you do recognize sin exists,

The word sin obviously exists, the actuality
of sin being an offense to a nonexistent
god does not. You can twist the word around
to try and make it mean whatever you like,
the main definition in every dictionary of
merit is, it's an offense to a divine power.

Quote: Dalex64

The point I am trying to reinforce here is what society perceives as right and wrong, and what people believe to be right and wrong with all of their hearts, has shifted over time and continues to change.
.

Of course. Look at spousal abuse. All
through history a husband could beat
his wife and kids as much as he liked
and it was perfectly fine. You still can
in many Islamic countries. You could
in the US for most of it's history.

But the morality of that changed, so
now it's considered evil. Morality is
a moving target..

Quote: Evenbob

The word sin obviously exists, the actuality
of sin being an offense to a nonexistent
god does not.

It is not surprising to me that someone who doesn't believe in God per se does not believe that sin is offensive to God. What is surprising is that you seem even hesitant to recognize the universal phenomenon that we have all experienced 'serious regrettable faults, offenses, or omissions'. You also don't seem to seriously consider the weight these mistakes can have on people emotionally, spiritually, and even physically.

Quote: Evenbob

Of course. Look at spousal abuse. All
through history a husband could beat
his wife and kids as much as he liked
and it was perfectly fine.

Spousal abuse is, was, and always will be wrong and evil. That fact does not change based on culture or existing or non-existing laws. It was NOT EVER perfectly fine! This attitude that because it was accepted it is fine is what artificially props up evil and silences good people who know very well that it is not fine and never could be fine. A Muslim man who beats his wife may use the culture or the Koran as rationalization or justification, but somewhere in his heart when he sees her beaten and crying huddled in a corner - he knows he has done wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

the weight these mistakes can have on people emotionally, spiritually, and even physically.

What does any of that have to do with
offending god? You're making logical
assumptions where none exist. You make
up a concept, and then go looking for
scenarios that fit into your concept.

That's not how science works. First you
have to find evidence there is a god,
which you cannot, then you have to
find out if it's possible for us to offend
him. You've done none of that, you work
totally on conjecture and opinion. Sin as an
offense against a god is just your over active
imagination at work.