Right to Life, Right to Death

I reckon everyone's heard by now of the girl whose tonsilectomy left her braindead. I dunno why, but stories like this (See also; Terri Shiavo) always elicit a passionate reaction from me.

I guess I don't get it. I get the tragedy, I get the desire to feel as though you didn't give up, but at what point does one have a responsibility to return to reality?

She is dead, just as Shiavo was dead. While the body may be alive, everything they were, are, and could have been is gone, never to return.

I suppose my looking at it through the cold eyes of logic results in me finding it abohorent and repellant. While I doubt the body cares, all I see are folks spending thousands of dollars a (week? day? hour?) to absolutely torture themselves and everyone involved. And to what end?

I suppose I'm looking for a compationate fellow to give me the other side of the story. I'd also be highly interested in FrG's or another godly man's opinion on the topic. While it's shameful to admit it, I suppose I look at this family and can't help but to judge each and every one of them as completely weak and void of courage, and that fact bothers me. Perhaps hearing another view will assist me in not being so cold =/

There's a couple reasons I think.

Some people have made it all the way into the morgue (and who knows, maybe farther), and that's just malpractice, not revival of the dead. Other cases of coma and brain death are lumped together. If you've got multiple medical rulings as being dead you're pretty much not going to get a miracle.

The below doesn'tclear up when someone is on a ventilator. The heart can beat, or produce erratic rhythms for quite a while too.

Quote:

Examine the person who may be dead.

Their pupils should be fixed and dilated--that is, showing no responsiveness to light and remaining fully open. They should not have a blink reflex when something brushes against the cornea of the eye. They should have no heart sounds for one minute of listening. They should have no breath sounds, and no other evidence of breathing. They should be unresponsive to deep painful stimuli (e.g., pushing down sharply and rubbing the sternum--the middle of the chest). Especially if they have been brought from somewhere else rather than dying in the hospital, they are "not dead until they are warm and dead", because hypothermia can mimic death by slowing down and dampening down all bodily functions.

Here is more along the lines of a finding of brain death:

Quote:

Any conditions that could mimic brain death, such as a severe drug overdose with barbiturates or extremely low body temperature, are ruled out.

In brain death, there is no spontaneous breathing. An apnea test is done to confirm this by taking the person off the ventilator until the carbon dioxide level in the blood reaches a level that would cause any living person to start to breathe.

Brain dead people do not exhibit reflexes that require brain function. For example, their pupils do not react to light by constricting, they do not gag if a tongue depressor is placed in the back of their throat, and there is no response to pain.

Specialized medical tests may be done to further confirm brain death. This may include an electroencephalogram (EEG), which would show no electrical activity coming from the brain.

In brain death, there is no blood going to the brain at all; the brain's swelling prevents blood (and therefore oxygen) from reaching the brain. Two tests that may be used to demonstrate the complete absence of blood flow to the brain include a nuclear brain scan or a cerebral angiogram. During the brain scan, a radioactive tracer is injected into a vein and the scanner is used to make sure that there is no blood going to the brain. In a cerebral angiogram, dye is injected into an artery and x-ray pictures are taken of the brain. Normally, there are four major arteries that supply a lot of blood to the brain; in a brain dead person, this x-ray of the blood vessels shows that no blood is going to the brain.

All of these tests are performed by doctors who specialize in the study of the brain or are expert in the care of patients that have brain injuries. The tests are explained to the patient's family, in addition to being carefully documented in the patient's medical chart

The thing is, yes, people are going to grasp at straws if they can. And some people's beliefs may allow more grasping than others. And you're going to have cases on which to believe people come back. Maybe they do. I don't believe it, yet. There are more reasons to think something was missed or a mistake was made. Because that is in the worldly realm of things that do happen that can be proven.

This might interest you too: Can brainwaves be detected in lime Jell-o.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2942/can-brainwaves-be-detected-in-lime-jell-o

Families, Catholics and Hospital Administrator's whose bills are being paid always "have hope''.

Remember, Judge Crater is still missing, not dead. So is Jimmy Hoffa.

Once a father was told his teen age son's blood flow to the brain was twenty percent...and the father encouraged the surgeon "to go in and open it up"... the surgeon had to tell the father its been two hours of insufficient oxygen flow to the brain, the machines are ventilating a corpse. We will wait a few hours for you to adjust to circumstances and then ask your consent to harvest organs. That is why the machines are being left on.

Ofcourse the father staggers around the room denying that his boy is dead and then blames the coop who wouldn't turn off the siren and drop back to slow the chase down. Denial, blame... and then some Priest is likely to show up and talk about "there is always hope"... well, you can jump off a skyscraper and hope to fly but no matter how faithfully you flap your arms, you will indeed fall. And the headline may well read "Realist killed as he is hit on head by idiot who had hope".

Malignant Hyperthermia is a condition wherein a patient suddenly gets to ultra dangerous temperatures .. ice baths, ice water, whatever is tried simply doesn't work in time and the liver and brain start to get cooked internally. Is it rare for a patient undergoing ANY procedure to have that happen. You bet it is. But it can happen during ANY procedure. Brain dead? There are degrees of anything. Persistent Vegetative State is NOT a coma but newspapers rarely make proper distinctions. So stories circulate about miracles. That is what sells newspapers. Inaccurate and biased reporting.

Add to that the doctors and administrators who raised money for a COMMUNITY hospital will want to practice not COMMUNITY medicine, but CATHOLIC medicine and you can have patients kept at great cost in a hellish torment beyond anything the Spanish Inquisition ever dreamed of. Some soldiers scream in pain others reach out blindly for a weapon and if one is placed in their hands say to their unseen benefactor Thank You and end their torment like a man. Gamblers on this site are often reciting Kipling about If you can risk it all on one toss and say nothing... but they often forget that Kipling also wrote about When you are wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains and the women come out to cut up your remains, just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your God like a soldier! There are many hospital administrators who would take that rifle away and compel agony to be endured in the name of Catholic Medicine.

In this particular case, I smell lawyers all over it.
Somebody is telling the family a dead girl isn't
worth anything, but a brain dead girl might have
a payday in it. There's a lawsuit coming.

Quote: Evenbob

There's a lawsuit coming.

There are some real hurdles in bringing a medical malpractice action these days... and even greater hurdles to winning one. Then of course comes the appeals process and I'm sure we can count on FrGambler to contribute some hominy to the lawyer's feasts.

It's a miracle!

Quote:

Williams was taken to Porter and Sons Funeral Home. They were getting ready to embalm him, and that’s when he started kicking inside the body bag.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2014/02/28/miss-man-declared-dead-wakes-up-in-body-bag/

I'm sorry I missed this thread in its infancy but since I'm trying to check DT a little more lately I came across it just now.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic teaching in regards to important end of life decisions. The most important point is to make a distinction between ordinary and extraordinary means of care. Ordinary care is things like providing food and water, giving medicine, general hygiene, etc. Things that are not invasive and burdensome. Extraordinary means are ventilators, big surgeries, untested medicines with huge side effects, etc. Ordinary means are always to be provided and extraordinary care is never to be mandated. Of course, if the patient wants to and it is feasible extraordinary means are licit. When someone "pulls the plug", what they usually mean is that they are stopping some type of artificial extraordinary means and there is nothing wrong with that decision reasonably and prayerfully made in consultation with medical professionals.

In a case where someone is tragically hurt and in a coma like state with everything functioning except their mind it presents a very difficult dilemma. In certain circumstances can even ordinary means become extraordinary. For example is the placing of a feeding tube for hydration and nutrition in such instances invasive or burdensome? Some Catholic moral theologians argue very persuasively that it is, and therefore not necessary.

I find Face's comments about clinging onto life as not courageous, very thought provoking. It is very true that as Catholics we believe in and look forward to life everlasting with God. Death as St. Francis used to say is our beautiful sister and friend carrying us into the bosom of God's eternal and loving embrace. If we were just looking at philosophies it would seem that atheists would be doing everything they could to sustain the brief time they have alive as long as possible no matter what before they slip into oblivion. However, because of the redemptive nature of suffering and the dignity and inestimable value of human life Catholics often find themselves on the side of the argument desiring to keep people alive until the nature of the illness or injury clearly demands only extraordinary means. Interesting...

Quote: FrGamble

If we were just looking at philosophies it would seem that atheists would be doing everything they could to sustain the brief time they have alive as long as possible no matter what before they slip into oblivion.

No. Kipling's "Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains" was aimed at young soldiers including atheists. We often deny medical care all someone's life until they are near death and then spend a fortune trying to prolong its last few weeks. Most people are concerned with more than just "pulling the plug when the machinery is ventillating a corpse" they are concerned with isescapable pain and needle pricks in a relentless search for veins that will hold when its time to simply let someone go in peace rather than "live" according to some Bishop's mandates of prolong the ordeal because life is sacred. Life consists of quality consideration not just a heartbeat.

Quote: Fleastiff

Life consists of quality consideration not just a heartbeat.

Very well said and the Bishops you think you are arguing with would actually agree with you.