Textual analysis of Old Testament

Father

I did study some bible in college, and they used to bring up textual questions. For example the following story is told twice in 2nd Samuel and 1 Chronicle. But the obvious difference is in verse #1.

Who started the problem (The Lord or Satan)? Doesn't the punishment seem severe for doing a census? In the modern day the government constantly does census.

c.630–540 BC	c.350–300 BC
1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.	1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.	2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the Lord thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?	3 And Joab answered, The Lord make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
4 Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.	4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.
5 And they passed over Jordan, and pitched in Aroer, on the right side of the city that lieth in the midst of the river of Gad, and toward Jazer:	5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.
6 Then they came to Gilead, and to the land of Tahtimhodshi; and they came to Danjaan, and about to Zidon,	6 But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.
7 And came to the strong hold of Tyre, and to all the cities of the Hivites, and of the Canaanites: and they went out to the south of Judah, even to Beersheba.	7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
8 So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.	8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.	9 And the Lord spake unto Gad, David's seer, saying,
10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.	10 Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the Lord came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,	11 So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee
12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.	12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of theLord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.	13 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of theLord; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man.
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of theLord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.	14 So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.
15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.	15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, theLord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lordrepented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.	16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
17 And David spake unto the Lord when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.	17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O Lord my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.
18 And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, Go up, rear an altar unto theLord in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite.	18 Then the angel of the Lord commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the Lord in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
19 And David, according to the saying of Gad, went up as the Lord commanded.	19 And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the Lord.
	20 And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat.
20 And Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming on toward him: and Araunah went out, and bowed himself before the king on his face upon the ground.	21 And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.
21 And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said, To buy the threshingfloor of thee, to build an altar unto the Lord, that the plague may be stayed from the people.	22 Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the Lord: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people.
22 And Araunah said unto David, Let my lord the king take and offer up what seemeth good unto him: behold, here be oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing instruments and other instruments of the oxen for wood.	23 And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all.
23 All these things did Araunah, as a king, give unto the king. And Araunah said unto the king, The Lord thy God accept thee.	24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the Lord, nor offer burnt offerings without cost.
24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.	25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.
25 And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.	26 And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the Lord; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
	27 And the Lord commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the sheath thereof.
	28 At that time when David saw that the Lord had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there.
	29 For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon.
	30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the Lord.

I would not know about any of this stuff, but since the first two parts seem to be dealing with causation and geographical range it is obvious that there are two separate authors from two different areas. Causation in warfare preparation usually depends upon who the victor is. If but a census, then it is simply the difference between counting and being counted. It seems the purpose was to determine the total number of potential soldiers and the financial resources for waging war.

Quote: Fleastiff

It seems the purpose was to determine the total number of potential soldiers and the financial resources for waging war.

I think so, but it seems to have displeased God because it meant that King David was trusting in his resources to go to battle instead of in God.

But the punishment is terrible (there died seventy thousand men from the three day pestilence) for what in modern times would just be considered being a good general.

Quote: Pacomartin

it meant that King David was trusting in his resources to go to battle instead of in God.
l.

Typical for god people. Don't trust science,
don't trust math or what you actually see, trust
a god who isn't there. In other words, just
trust dumb luck. To keep their power the
religious leaders had to constantly fight
against science and reason. Keeping the
people dumb and ignorant was the best
way to do that.

Quote: Pacomartin

I think so, but it seems to have displeased God because it meant that King David was trusting in his resources to go to battle instead of in God.

But the punishment is terrible (there died seventy thousand men from the three day pestilence) for what in modern times would just be considered being a good general.

You are right in that David was warned many times by God and even his trusted servant Joab not to take the census and rather to trust in the Word of the Lord. I agree the punishment is terrible. It is obvious that this is not taking place in our days today and we have to be careful not to read such things in the light of our own day. The revelation of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of God's pedagogy of bringing a violent and brutal culture to see its ugliness and to trust in the Lord who alone will bring the peace we desire. Seen now in this light it is indeed a harsh penalty. You will notice that there is in the midst of the story a foreshadowing of the mercy of God who stays the Angel's hand before the full brunt of the pestilence falls.

Quote: Evenbob

To keep their power the religious leaders had to constantly fight against science and reason.
Keeping the people dumb and ignorant was the best way to do that.

Shades of the first Chinese Dynasty. The peasant who stated the flood was the result of a rock slide not the anger of the Gods, organized work parties not pray vigils and sacrifices.

Quote: FrGamble

You are right in that David was warned many times by God and even his trusted servant Joab not to take the census and rather to trust in the Word of the Lord. .

A real god would have no reason to do
that. The priests of a fake god would
have a reason. Science takes away their
power and diminishes them. It was
that way until a couple thousand years
later when the god people were forced kicking
and screaming to accept science as a
better way of doing things. And the
old priests in the Bible were correct,
once science was let in, the power of
god has been diminished to the point
that he's just an afterthought to most
people now.

It's impossible for both science and
superstition to flourish at the same time.
Superstition must kill science if it wants
to survive. Science kills superstition by
just quietly doing it's thing. And the
Church is pure superstition from it's
head to it's tail.

Quote: FrGamble

You are right in that David was warned many times by God and even his trusted servant Joab not to take the census and rather to trust in the Word of the Lord.

I wonder how often the Greek gods threatened their subjects not to piss them off. It's clear with stories like these that Jehovah was meant as deity to be feared. we know from stories like job that he's not to be questioned, either.

It's times like these, when this is put on display, that I'm so glad it's all a bunch of myths.

Quote: Nareed

I wonder how often the Greek gods threatened their subjects not to piss them off. It's clear with stories like these that Jehovah was meant as deity to be feared. we know from stories like job that he's not to be questioned, either.

I wouldn't say feared, but there is a slow but important movement from fear to trust to loving relationship. The Old Testament is like the fall in the garden in reverse. It all begins in a loving relationship built on trust and then it moves to Adam and Eve fearing God and viewing Him as competition. It takes a long time to move people from fear to trust and finally to love.

An example of this is Evenbob continuing to think science and God are in competition. We need not fear that God is somehow going to go against our reason or ask us to go against nature. God who created the laws that govern the physical universe and gave us a brain with consciousness, freedom, and intelligence to explore the world and do science is best understood when faith in Him and Scientific study go hand in hand. This is not to say faith and science are the same and equally important. After all science is limited to our observations and experiments. Science gives us the data that faith, wisdom, and reason extrapolate from and act upon.

Quote: FrGamble

I wouldn't say feared,

You have a vested interest against saying so.

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but there is a slow but important movement from fear to trust to loving relationship.

Let's see:

Adam and Eve disobey Jehovah, he kicks them out of the house and gives them an awful existence

The builders at Babel frighten a dim-witted Jehovah who seems to think a bunch of primitives using mud brick can build a tower to reach the sky. He messes with their minds and scatters them all over the world.

Humanity displeases Jehovah, he drowns them all and all the animals on Earth. Genocide doesn't get more complete than this.

Satan proposes a bet, Jehovah takes it, Job and his family suffer horribly. When Job dares question the high and mighty, he gets a mean-spirited tongue-lashing.

Do I go on? Do I need to go on? Anyone with half a working brain would be terrified of this monster.

This, BTW, is expected. The gods tend to be terrifying in many of their interactions with mortals. they are modeled on natural forces, after all, and these are scary, capricious, undependable things. And when they go bad, they go really bad. Storms, earthquakes, lightning, volcanoes, disease and the like are destructive. they kill people. Epidemics were horribly common in ancient times, Medieval times, the Dark Ages, the Renaissance and modern times right up to widespread vaccination and modern notions of hygiene.

Again, why would the Hebrew god be any different? Or the Christian god later on? You can wax poetic about Jesus (and I still don't see how salvation is anything other than a scam writ large) and forgiveness all you want, but that doesn't do away with Hell.

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An example of this is Evenbob continuing to think science and God are in competition.

Oh, there is no competition.