Neo-monophysitism

Quote: Dalex64

You are reading too much into my possible meaning of story.

Story = fiction. Not based on actual events, or facts. You can teach any lesson you want with a story, but it is still a story.

Okay thanks for that clarification. As I suspected we differ on our use of the word "story". What I am suggesting is that the chapters in question of Genesis is like a movie that says, "Based on actual events". This means that the writer or director knows certain things that most certainly happened, some truths, and then builds the story around them in the genre of myth. You can teach any lesson with a story, but I believe it is always more effective when it is connected to real life events and reality.

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I don't want to jump all the way into the new testament yet, but those websites which claim that genesis is non-fiction point out all of the ways that Jesus, peter, and paul reference genesis as a non-fictional account of actual events.

They appropriately refer to Genesis in the way that even back then they knew was not a historical writing, but a truth telling myth based on real events.

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If one of the punishments is woman being subservient to man, then it is clearly saying that this is how we are supposed to live, or as an explaination for why women are supposed to be subservient to men, just as it is an explaination of why women experience so much pain in childbirth. That punishment doesn't seem to have been lifted.

I think you should go back and read that again. The statement of a consequence of sin is not a commandment of how we are supposed to live. In fact wouldn't we try very hard not to live out the terrible consequence of our sins and return to the attitude that filled the Garden of Eden where men and women were equal partners meant to help one another in their complementarity?

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If we agree that the book of genesis is at least mostly a work of fiction, then I can instead ask questions about the message and meaning.

Still on the table - no admonishment for multiple spouses. Lots of examples of multiple spouses in the bible. It was against roman law, too. I've done a lot of reading on this now, and can see where the one spouse rule didn't really develop for centuries.

As someone pointed out already it is hard to read the OT and see anything but problems for those who had multiple wives. You are right the one spouse rule which was present in the first chapters of Genesis and then was lost became a later development or a return back to the way God had ordained it.

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After that, I'd like to know the meaning of the enslavement of the son of Ham, and why Ham should be punished for seeing his father Noah naked.

I think this story is used to criticize some of the deviant sexual practices and abuses of the Canaanite religion, which traces its roots back to Ham.

Quote: FrGamble

In fact wouldn't we try very hard not to live out the terrible consequence of our sins and return to the attitude that filled the Garden of Eden where men and women were equal partners .

Such utter tripe, I laugh out loud when
I read this nonsense. Priests are like
vacuum cleaner door to door salesmen,
always selling their product even when
off duty. Except they're selling myths,
not vacuums.

Watch out evil sinner, look how far you've
fallen from perfection! Always making people
feel less than, always making people feel
awful so later they they can do them a 'favor',
and give them a little false hope. And the
kicker is, they think they're doing good,
they really think they're doing 'gods work'.

Guilt salesmen, avoid them like the plague.

Nobody ever needs to convince anyone how fallen from perfection they are! The most important job for priests and really for everyone is to convince people to not give up on the dream of perfection and to convince them not to feel awful about themselves. My job and yours if you chose to accept it is to give hope to people and remind them of how awesome they are and how much potential they have. It is to save people from the tyranny of their sins and make them feel good about themselves again. I continue to have NO idea why you think I or the Church would ever want to make people feel awful, that is exactly against what Jesus came to teach us. Maybe you are confusing the reality of guilt people feel for their sin as the end of the message of Jesus, that is like stopping at the crucifixion. However, we both know the story doesn't end there.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm a little uncomfortable with your use of the word "story" as if it was worthless or not communicating real truths.

Nice dodge.

Here's a point-blank question: do you believe Eve and Adam were real people?

That is, do you believe there were two humans who somehow came into existence as fully formed adults, lived in a privileged place where all their needs were taken care of, did not feel sexual desires, did not age, etc.?

If you do, I'd be very interested to see how that squares with very elementary biology and evolution, to say the least.

Quote: FrGamble

Nobody ever needs to convince anyone how fallen from perfection they are! The most important job for priests and really for everyone is to convince people to not give up on the dream of perfection .

You keep repeating this drivel like we're
all really striving to be perfect, and we're
all so fallen. It's religious swill. I don't feel
guilty, I don't feel fallen, and I sure as hell
don't want to be perfect, whatever that means.

You set up the straw man and make him perfect,
then pretend that's what we're all striving for.
It's meaningless nonsense meant to make people
feel bad about themselves. You aren't the solution,
you and your kind are the problem.

Quote: Evenbob

You keep repeating this drivel like we're
all really striving to be perfect, and we're
all so fallen. It's religious swill. I don't feel
guilty, I don't feel fallen, and I sure as hell
don't want to be perfect, whatever that means.

You set up the straw man and make him perfect,
then pretend that's what we're all striving for.
It's meaningless nonsense meant to make people
feel bad about themselves. You aren't the solution,
you and your kind are the problem.

Psychiatrists are making fortunes trying to help people overcome the damage done from all that guilt being instilled in their heads.

[3:16] To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

I have read it several times, and I don't think it could be any more clear - "he shall rule over you" is a consequence for her actions, as is "in pain you shall bring forth children"

I have never seen someone suggest that these punishments can ever be reversed - because they describe how the nature of man and woman came to be. There is nothing about how repentance for original sin can reduce the pain of childbirth, make it so man doesn't have to work the earth for food, or be regranted access to the garden of eden. With that, there is nothing to suggest that "he shall rule over you" is reversable either.

If it is reversable, doesn't it show that man has the ability to pick and choose which of god's words to believe or obey, or show that god is fallable by his inability to enforce his words?

From Genesis chapter 9

[9:20] Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard.
[9:21] He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent.
[9:22] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
[9:23] Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.
[9:24] When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,
[9:25] he said, "Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers."
[9:26] He also said, "Blessed by the LORD my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.
[9:27] May God make space for Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave."

This was another thing I had trouble understanding, and I don't think your answer about sexual deviants applied here.

Why was Canaan made a slave for Ham seeing his drunk naked passed out father and telling his brothers who then covered him up without looking?
How did Noah know that Ham had done something to him, and what had he done?

What is the lesson here?

Quote: Evenbob

You keep repeating this drivel like we're
all really striving to be perfect, and we're
all so fallen. It's religious swill. I don't feel
guilty, I don't feel fallen, and I sure as hell
don't want to be perfect, whatever that means.

You set up the straw man and make him perfect,
then pretend that's what we're all striving for.
It's meaningless nonsense meant to make people
feel bad about themselves. You aren't the solution,
you and your kind are the problem.

More evil is done because people feel bad about themselves than for any other reason. If you make someone feel good about themselves it encourages them to do good and live right. It is kind of like raising the bar so that people strive to keep working and accomplish new things. What you seem to be living and what you seem to think about what the Church should do is just lay the bar down on the ground. That type of defeatism and pessimism does no one any good. God sees your greatness and frees you from ever focusing on your faults and He encourages you to always keep striving to be better. I fail to see why any of this is a problem. Do you not think people want to better themselves? Do you not think they can? Do you want people to just settle for surviving and not desire to thrive? What you are peddling is sickness that leads to death and despair, stop it. As somebody recently posted the guilt and despair you are forcing on people causes them to need psychiatric help.

Quote: FrGamble

As someone pointed out already it is hard to read the OT and see anything but problems for those who had multiple wives. You are right the one spouse rule which was present in the first chapters of Genesis and then was lost became a later development or a return back to the way God had ordained it.

There is no one spouse rule in genesis - there are examples of people with one spouse, and an example of someone with two. No rule.
As far as I can tell, there is no rule until Paul in the NT tells certain people in leadership positions in the church that they can have only one wife.

My assertion continues to be that marriage in christianity has not always been between just one man and one woman. That is what I was hearing over and over during the gay marriage debates, and it is obviously not true.

For reference, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity
There are other websites out there, but I don't like the way most of them present their information. It's usually rather rude.