Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

this is your made up imagination and no more important that talking about Santa.

What do you have against Santa?
He never burned any witches
or molested any kids. He's a
shining example of manmade
morality at work. He constantly
inspires.

Quote: FrGamble

Both are very immoral and that is the case regardless of who does it or when, it is objectively wrong.

The organization that you work for and support is world famous for these activity's. If I understand your meaning correctly, you define the church as objectively wrong. I don't know how you can support a business that is a world leader in those activity's?

So the argument here is what, whether my objection to inflicting that pain on others is either objective or subjective? It's subjective to me, because the church could do those things to my family, which in turns endangers my future. It's not objective, because I care about the human race, or God said so or Moses or whoever. Property rights, the original law. Your tribe doesn't steal my tribes food. If our tribe has way more food than we need, we may give it to your tribe in the hope that were the situation reversed you'd do the same. And so the law grew, from one clan to the next. Those "laws" have been around long before writing.

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What if I said those things you mentioned were personally moral and good to me?

I would have to ask you if you were Muslim, or for that matter Christian in the dark ages, or maybe Salem era xtian.

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What ground would you have to stand on subjectively to say I was wrong?

Property rights. I think what I've earned belongs to me, you think 10% belongs to the church, IIANM. And sometimes the church thought everything belonged to them, and that is where they got a lot of their wealth.

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In fact why are you even using the terms moral or immoral if you don't think there is any standard on which to objectively judge these things?

The standard itself is subjective. I could more accurately have used positive and negative, but that discussion would have already died.

Whether or not something is positive for me is subjective....not very catchy is it?

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It is a good line, but can you give a single example of this?

How many instinctual acts regarding reproduction, have restriction placed on them by those who would be thought leaders, from one religion or another?

The well is deep here Padre. The examples are myriad, obviously you don't need me to point them out, so you must have another reason for asking.

Quote: petroglyph

The organization that you work for and support is world famous for these activity's. If I understand your meaning correctly, you define the church as objectively wrong. I don't know how you can support a business that is a world leader in those activity's?

The people who did those things are objectively wrong, I hope you can agree with me on that? However, the Church itself did not - in fact it teaches directly against it. Remember the history of the Church is guided by its saints and not those who in their personal subjective life commit evil.

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Property rights. I think what I've earned belongs to me, you think 10% belongs to the church, IIANM. And sometimes the church thought everything belonged to them,

And what would you say if the tribe next to you said their morality was that they will take everything you own and they have never heard of these imaginary made-up property rights of which you speak?

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How many instinctual acts regarding reproduction, have restriction placed on them by those who would be thought leaders, from one religion or another?

The well is deep here Padre. The examples are myriad, obviously you don't need me to point them out, so you must have another reason for asking.

The reason is that there are not such cases of the Church using anything against someone. God only wants the best for people. Maybe you think saving sex till marriage and not sleeping around is restrictive and turns people's instinctual acts against them. I think it is more about helping people control themselves so as not to hurt themselves or others. But I still don't know why you are criticizing anything if you think morality is subjective. Maybe it is different for me and you and who are you to say my morality is wrong or yours is right?

Quote: FrGamble

God only wants the best for people

Really? I mean, good grief, REALLY?
Then doesn't you pitiful weak god
get off his lazy ass and actually
prove that. Answer prayers for
people dying in hospitals above
the rate of random chance. Is that
too much to ask.

Heal all the 2 year olds in Africa that have the
mothers mothers praying for them
every night. He wants the best for them,
is that too much to ask?

Of course it is! There is no god to answer
a single one of those prayers. But it makes
people feel proactive, so they pretend
there is.

Quote: FrGamble

And what would you say if the tribe next to you said their morality was that they will take everything you own and they have never heard of these imaginary made-up property rights of which you speak?

I would assume they are from the government.

What does the Jaguar do when the Hyena's steal his kill? Dwell on it, or don't. Your talking to someone who has lost nearly everything more than once here Padre. If you are young and fit enough, get up and go make some more. If your old and decrepit, decide if you are ready for your last stand.

How do you think all those peasants felt, when the red hats came collecting their vig? That they were getting closer to heaven?

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The reason is that there are not such cases of the Church using anything against someone.

Have you not noticed the church trying to control the thoughts of it's members?

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God only wants the best for people.

You say God created all that is. So you are saying either this [man] is the best he could do, or he made humans like this intentionally so they would suffer. Can't be both.

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Maybe it is different for me and you and who are you to say my morality is wrong or yours is right?

Would you not want me to believe that your morality comes from a book, and it was created elsewhere? Me, I don't have that excuse. I'm going by life experiences and trial and error.

I don't consider myself your judge, you have to deal with that. It's easier for xtians to blame it all on God. I have no one else to blame, and although I am satisfied with my own behavior I realize it wouldn't get me into your heaven.

Quote: Evenbob

Then doesn't you pitiful weak god
get off his lazy ass and actually
prove that.

I can tell you are pretty upset about this. We should be. Perhaps it is God wondering why we don't do more and asking us to get off our lazy asses. We spend too much time doing what you suggested is good morals, namely doing whatever we want. That type of attitude or morality leads to the inequalities and injustices of our world.

Quote: FrGamble

I Perhaps it is God wondering why we don't do more

Figuring why a non existent god doesn't
seem to exist is the original huge
waste of time. Find something productive
to do, like watching grass grow. You'll
be amazed at how much time you have
if you never think about gods wants and wishes.

Simple question. Which best sums up your position on the invisible dinosaur in EB's backyard?

A) I believe in it!
B) I don't believe in it -- In other words I haven't seen enough evidence to support it's existence. Until I do, I default to the negative, but am open to changing my mind if new evidence becomes available.
C) I specifically disbelieve in it. I'm not interested in even entertaining evidence on the matter -- my mind is made up.
D) I'm a bigot.

B.

But I don't default to the negative, I simply stay open.

Quote: Wizard

Simple question. Which best sums up your position on the invisible dinosaur in EB's backyard?
.

I always choose D, I'm a bigot.
Once you say that, people leave
you alone.