Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

in fact I believe it is a dangerous idea that followed out to its logical conclusion does not inspire goodness.

Actually, lack of a belief doesn't inspire anything.
The simple fact is, Xtions need an outside force like
the Church to run their lives, to tell them what to do,
what to believe, how to act, because they are incapable
of doing so on their own. This is obvious when you
talk to dedicated Christians. They are lost in the
world without a moral authority looming over
them, running everything.

As an atheist, the most common emotion I run
into from Christians about my atheism, is anger.
They hate (HATE) that I don't need their crutch
and live fine without it. What they want is for me
to be just as dependent as they are, to not think
for myself, to get all my guidance from a book,
to be under their control as a 'brother', so they
can judge me and tell me what to do.

This is the reason atheists are hated by religious
zealots of every kind. We're not drinking the
Kool Aid and and it drives them bat dung up the
wall crazy. But times are different now, we have
a podium, religion can no longer burn us at the
stake and cut our heads off. (in the West, anyway).
And our numbers are growing exponentially.

Quote: Face

Morality: n - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

I love dictionaries and use them frequently. But they are shallow and incomplete. What constitutes right and wrong, good and bad? How can one tell?

Quote:

And it's good for avoiding conflict. Conflict costs energy, whether animal or human. I happen to enjoy sleeping soundly knowing that the majority of our society isn't going to steal my truck, squat my house, or kill me for personal gain.

That's part of it, but far from all of it.

And that's why there's a need for philosophy: to answer all such questions.

Now, even before formal, systematized philosophy arose in Greece, there were people who thought about such things. The innovation of systematic philosophy, though, lies in the fact that each philosopher left us not only their conclusions, but also a record of their thoughts and/or explanations of their conclusions. Not coincidentally, most of them tackled the problem of ethics after, or alongside, other philosophical problems like those of physics (as in the nature of existence), epistemology (how do we know what we know), politics and even esthetics. Because all of that either determines ethics, or ethics determines it.

Religion singularly fails at this. Everything is a revelation handed over by a deity, to be believed and obeyed without question. If something doesn't make sense, that's because the deity knows best and we don't understand it. It's an authoritarian imposition of rules derived from the prejudices and preferences of the men who wrote them, with a claim to absolute authority.

In simpler terms, philosophy proposes and religion imposes.

Quote: Nareed

Religion singularly fails at this. Everything is a revelation handed over by a deity, to be believed and obeyed without question... It's an authoritarian imposition of rules derived from the prejudices and preferences of the men who wrote them, with a claim to absolute authority.

Very well said. Religion requires no thinking,
that's been done for you. Your job is to trust
those in authority, obey blindly, and give
generously when it's time to tithe. You very
seldom meet a stupid atheist, they had to
arrive at their destination by actually thinking
for themselves. Dumb people are very bad
at that.

Quote: Evenbob

If you're going to hold atheists to a
standard, you have to hold YOUR Church to
the same standard. It looks like the Church
did what they wanted when...

Yes the Church did sometimes act as if they were God and did what they wanted. I'm just glad you now see that basing your morality on what you want leads to atrocities.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm curious why you think atheism was not essential in allowing these men to supplant God with themselves and do horrible things because it was what they wanted.

a) A higher power to create a morality is not a necessary to exist. Your belief that it should exist does not mean it DOES exist.
b) People do what they want with or without a belief in a higher power. People ignore their moral codes ALL THE TIME. Hitler was not an atheist. Truman was a Christian, yet he believed it was right to drop the a-bomb. Did he wrestle with the decision? Sure. Did he do it? Yes, and his belief (or otherwise) in a higher pwoer morality didn't stop him doing a terrible thing.

Thus atheism is not a necessary cause to do bad things. A lack of subscribing to a human morality is. That morality can come from many sources, and there is no reason to suppose that it has to come from God, or what God teaches via the Bible is objectively correct. It's just one (all be it in many cases, solid) moral code.

Basically, people do bad things when they don't give a s$%^ about others.

Quote: Nareed

Because all of that either determines ethics, or ethics determines it.

That's what I get for writing at the office with so many distractions.

In brief, physics (or metaphysics depending on the period) and epistemology determine, in large part, what ethics are like. Ethics and the other two branches serve as guides to politics and aesthetics.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm just glad you now see that basing your morality on what you want leads to atrocities.

I'm basing my morality on what I believe
is right. Just like you.

Quote: Evenbob

You very
seldom meet a stupid atheist, they had to
arrive at their destination by actually thinking
for themselves.

Thing is, without a God there would be no need for atheists.

Quote: AZDuffman

Thing is, without a God there would be no need for atheists.

Thing is, without a concept of God there would be no need for atheists.

Quote: AZDuffman

That is because the PC world does not have the guts to call it what it is, a war against radical islam. Radical islam launched another crusade in the late 1960s but we have refused to believe it for what it is. We will eventually pay, hard.

The war on terrorism is often a war on the rights and freedoms of the liberal(*) democracy we expect to live in given the constitution and charters governments have signed up to in the past.

It's not a war on the radical Islamists at all. Which is part of the problem.

(*) Classical Liberalism, the one that the original Republican party was founded on.... not meaning liberal democrats :)