Should the $500 banknote be revived?

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December 1st, 2018 at 9:41:34 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
When Switzerland issues their new 9th series 1000CHF banknote (worth about $1000) I wonder how much they could issue for world consumption? The 8th series peaked at around $50 billion. It occurred to me that bitcoin peaked at over $320 billion, and the Swiss banknote has removed all Swiss historical portraits and has 13 high tech security features. There is no real reason why they can't reach $300 billion, even if the GDP of Switzerland is only about $700 billion.

If people can bank over $300 billion on a mathematical formula, what is there to prevent them from spending that much on beautiful secure paper?

1000 Swiss francs in year 1907 could buy 291.057 gram gold. The price of 291.057 gram gold in year 1911 was $193.

1000 CHF=
$232 early 1970s
$533 6th series 4 April 1978
$652 8th series 1 April 1998
$1,002 12 November 2018

Historical images
Swiss 1000 CHF banknote 2nd series 1907


Swiss 1000 CHF banknote 2nd series 1911- post WWII

Swiss 3rd series wartime reserve
Swiss 4th series reserve in case of widespread counterfeiting (never issued)
Swiss 5th series 14 June 1957
Swiss 6th series 4 April 1978
Swiss 7th series reserve in case of widespread counterfeiting (never issued)


Swiss 1000 CHF banknote 8th series 1 April 1998


The Swiss 200 franc note was released on 22 August 2018. The only denominations to be released in 2019 are 100 francs and 1000 francs.
Swiss 1000 CHF banknote 9th series design will not be released until 2019, but it will follow the "hand" theme used in the smaller denomination notes.

If Switzerland starts making a fortune because people start acquiring their thousand dollar banknote, should we follow with out own thousand dollar bill?
December 1st, 2018 at 9:19:39 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
In defense of cash: why we should bring back the $500 note and other big bills October 19, 2017

If we think the largest value in circulation of banknote denominations, not just by face value but face value* number of bills in circulation, they would be ranked thusly.

Benjamins are ranked #1 of course, as they cumulatively are worth over a trillion dollars. Closely following the Benjamins by the largest value of Japanese Yen banknote in a society very obsessed with cash. The next three are Euro banknotes, but the highest ranked is the 50 (not the 500) , which is the primary note in ATM machines.

The remainder of the notes are often not worth that much per note, but there are simply a lot of them, The USD$20 is a good example.

Billions Currency Value local Value USD Number
$1,155 USD $100 $100.00 11,548
$808 JPY ¥10,000 $74.55 9,462
$487 EUR 50 $52.70 9,231
$285 EUR 500 $527.05 540
$256 EUR 100 $105.41 2,433
$177 USD $20 $20.00 8,862
$104 RUB 5,000 руб. $29.43 3,285
$96.7 INR ₹2,000 $82.43 1,262
$83.5 USD $50 $50.00 1,670
$62.7 KRW ₩50,000 $41.37 1,516
$55.6 GBP £20 $24.62 2,258
$49.0 CHF sFr. 1,000 $1,014.96 48
$47.9 MXN $500 $24.20 1,981


The Swiss thousand franc note, is the only worth over US$1000. Despite there being only 48 million notes, it still makes the top 10 because each note is so valuable.

If the 2019 Swiss 1000 franc note becomes a collectible around the world, this ranking could move up to hundreds of billions of dollars.
DATA is for 31 December 2016.
January 13th, 2019 at 1:44:35 PM permalink
Nared
Member since: Jan 13, 2019
Threads: 2
Posts: 8
The trouble with big bills in circulation is the larger the denomination the more attractive they are to counterfeiters.
Today, even an ordinary xerox machine can make a good reproduction, hence our complicated $100 bills.
Ebay has a good selection of replica bills but most have the wrong portrait on them. I bought one of the
$1000 bills for $1 because it has the correct portrait (Grover Cleveland) and I keep it in my holdup wallet.
That is the wallet I carry when I must go into a big city or out after dark on a Friday to give to a holdup man.
Real bill above, fake bill below:


January 13th, 2019 at 2:36:38 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 118
Posts: 9618
Quote: Nared
The trouble with big bills in circulation is the larger the denomination the more attractive they are to counterfeiters.


Yes and no. Larger bills are harder to pass and when people do take them they give them a much closer look.

Some airhead somewhere took this back in the day:

The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
January 13th, 2019 at 7:48:31 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
Quote: Nared
The trouble with big bills in circulation is the larger the denomination the more attractive they are to counterfeiters.


After WWII the British demonetized all bills higher than £5 because of fears that old banknotes counterfeited by the Nazis would show up. On 21 February 1964 they re-introduced the £10 banknote, and 9 July 1970 the £20 banknotes, and on 20 March 1981 the £50 banknote. When the £50 was reintroduced it was worth $113 although it dropped below $100 within 11 weeks. But by then the people were very distrustful of high-value banknotes and most businesses would not accept them.

In November of 1994 the ECB decided on the denominations for the future Euro. While the 100 and 200 were expected the bank decided to include the 500 denomination. Fear of counterfeiting and of drug trafficking meant that there was a lot of concern about the high-value banknotes. There were three denominations over 260.
511.29 1,000 Deutsche mark
453.78 1,000 Dutch guilder
363.36 5,000 Austrian schilling


In November of 1994 there were only nine $100 banknotes per US inhabitant in circulation. The ECB felt that they had to risk the counterfeiting and drug trafficking or they would not reach their goal of having the same level of circulation as the USD. It took five years, but by the end of 2007 the US was circulating $828.91 billion in banknotes and coins while the Euro area was circulating ~700 billion Euros in banknotes and coins which was worth over a trillion USD.

A 500 banknote was worth:
YEAR Min USD --- Max USD
2002 $429.70 --- $524.25
2003 $518.05 --- $629.85
2004 $590.05 --- $681.25
2005 $583.35 --- $673.80
2006 $593.00 --- $666.35
2007 $645.20 --- $743.10
2008 $622.30 --- $800.50
2009 $627.35 --- $755.00
2010 $597.95 --- $726.80
2011 $646.30 --- $743.75
2012 $603.10 --- $673.15
2013 $638.70 --- $690.80
2014 $605.05 --- $696.35
2015 $526.20 --- $600.75
2016 $518.75 --- $575.80
2017 $520.80 --- $602.05
2018 $564.05 --- $624.40
2019 $567.85 --- $570.50


The problem with counterfeiting high-value banknotes is people look at them carefully. Now that there are more $100 banknotes than $1 banknotes in circulation it is much easier to pass them off.

The Swiss go way overboard with security features to prevent counterfeiting
Security features of Swiss banknotes




Design for 100 and 1000 CHF banknotes to be released next year

January 14th, 2019 at 3:02:19 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
Quote: Nared
I bought one of the $1000 bills for $1 because it has the correct portrait (Grover Cleveland) and I keep it in my holdup wallet.
That is the wallet I carry when I must go into a big city or out after dark on a Friday to give to a holdup man.


That's an interesting fake. Of course the last $1000 bill was produced half a century before the big-headed designs.

But they were careful enough to use the real signatures of the Secretary of the Treasury and the Treasurer in 1996

Robert Edward Rubin : Secretary, 1/11/1995 - 7/2/1999


Mary Ellen Withrow : Treasurer, 3/1/1994 - 1/20/2001





Trivia Question about the Treasurer of the United State's. What has been true about the Treasurer since Harry S. Truman appointed a new person to the position after his surprise win for the Presidency in 1948?

Harry Truman viewed the Treasurer as a high profile position where he could appoint a woman. Her signature would be on all the currency in the country. Every Treasurer since then has been a woman so that of the 44 people who have held the position the first 28 were men.
All 77 holders of the Secretary of the Treasury cabinet-level position have been men.

Richard Nixon appointed the first Latina to the position, and Jimmy Carter the first African American woman to the position.

The last four Treasurers have all been Latinas
Rosario Marin August 16, 2001 June 30, 2003 (1 year, 318 days) George W. Bush
569 days vacant
Anna Escobedo Cabral January 19, 2005 January 20, 2009 (4 years, 1 day) George W. Bush
198 days vacant
Rosa Gumataotao Rios August 6, 2009 July 8, 2016 (6 years, 337 days) Barack Obama
346 days vacant
Jovita Carranza June 19, 2017 present (1 year, 206 days) Donald Trump
January 14th, 2019 at 4:23:00 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 99
Posts: 2483
have no idea re the trivia question

2026 now, maybe, for the Tubman twenty dollar bill. If I get lucky maybe it'll keep getting pushed till I'm dead. MLK I'd have been happier about.

http://fortune.com/2018/04/19/harriet-tubman-20-dollar-bill-delayed/
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
January 19th, 2019 at 11:03:50 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
A survey of 46 countries around the world from 2006-2016 found that 45 of them were increasing Currency in Circulation (CIC) at a rate faster than GDP growth. Ranked in order of how much faster is shown below

Quote: odiousgambit
2026 now, maybe, for the Tubman twenty dollar bill. If I get lucky maybe it'll keep getting pushed till I'm dead.


USA increased it's CIC supply by 86.77% while it's GDP only grew by 34.51%. You would think that the $20 would too small a denomination to put into ATM machines, and by now the $50 would be more common.


Difference Country Growth in CIC minus Growth in GDP

  1. 769.3% Argentina 904.04% minus 134.72%
  2. 454.5% Sudan 621.32% minus 166.83%
  3. 409.2% Mozambique 441.72% minus 32.52%
  4. 377.5% DR Congo 522.28% minus 144.81%
  5. 368.2% Ukraine 354.74% minus -13.44%
  6. 326.7% Angola 441.16% minus 114.49%
  7. 311.8% Iceland 329.46% minus 17.63%
  8. 274.3% Algeria 318.17% minus 43.83%
  9. 243.6% Pakistan 350.26% minus 106.65%
  10. 206.0% Afghanistan 371.57% minus 165.62%
  11. 180.3% South Korea 249.75% minus 69.50%
  12. 166.9% Bolivia 362.06% minus 195.20%
  13. 155.9% Egypt 368.75% minus 212.88%
  14. 139.6% Iraq 279.57% minus 139.97%
  15. 138.7% Mexico 224.11% minus 85.42%
  16. 130.7% Chile 234.42% minus 103.74%
  17. 130.3% Turkey 358.55% minus 228.24%
  18. 126.1% Kazakhstan 191.05% minus 65.00%
  19. 119.0% Israel 197.56% minus 78.56%
  20. 109.2% Colombia 182.97% minus 73.73%
  21. 102.0% Oman 148.41% minus 46.39%
  22. 85.9% U.K. 83.73% minus -2.22%
  23. 72.6% Eurozone 79.26% minus 6.62%
  24. 52.3% U.S. 86.77% minus 34.51%
  25. 48.1% Myanmar 412.99% minus 364.94%
  26. 36.0% Morocco 88.86% minus 52.84%
  27. 34.8% Kenya 207.94% minus 173.10%
  28. 26.5% Thailand 109.98% minus 83.46%
  29. 24.3% India 287.23% minus 262.91%
  30. 23.9% Switzerland 77.61% minus 53.74%
  31. 22.8% Canada 58.64% minus 35.87%
  32. 21.5% New Zealand 75.69% minus 54.23%
  33. 18.0% Japan 27.07% minus 9.03%
  34. 17.7% Australia 80.65% minus 62.93%
  35. 12.7% Russia* 177.94% minus 165.28%
  36. 11.6% Denmark 19.82% minus 8.22%
  37. 10.4% Brazil 170.49% minus 160.09%
  38. 5.2% Norway -2.37% minus -7.57%
  39. 3.5% Indonesia 243.02% minus 239.56%
  40. 1.1% Nigeria 179.65% minus 178.54%
  41. 0.1% South Africa 134.67% minus 134.54%
  42. -65.9% Sweden -44.24% minus 21.66%



Scandinavia is often considered the center of the movement to cashlessness with Sweden leading the way. Denmark and Norway are basically keeping CIC in pace with GDP (while Norway is actually decreasing CIC). Iceland is the exception as it is still recovering from the bankruptcies of 2008 and is returning to cash after becoming the most cashless country in the Western World in the 1980s.
March 6th, 2019 at 6:04:32 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 99
Posts: 2483
Quote: Pacomartin

Swiss 1000 CHF banknote 9th series design will not be released until 2019, but it will follow the "hand" theme used in the smaller denomination notes.
Article in Wall Street Journal today says it is officially released.

Quote:
If Switzerland starts making a fortune because people start acquiring their thousand dollar banknote, should we follow with out own thousand dollar bill?
Mixed feelings on that. I certainly use cash in special circumstances, like gambling, but my daily practice is credit cards - that can be exclusively so for months at a time.
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
March 22nd, 2019 at 1:00:53 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 907
Posts: 10736
It looks like Denmark has joined Norway and Sweden as the only three countries in the developed world where the value of banknotes in circulation is now decreasing. The highest denomination in all three countries, the 1000kr banknote is being used less and less.


Value of all banknotes in circulation per inhabitant at the present-day exchange rate
479 Sweden with 6.6% in 1000kr banknotes worth 96
753 Norway with 35.6% in 1000kr banknotes worth 103
1488 Denmark with 48.6% in 1000kr banknotes worth 135
3,555 Euro Area

Scrap 1,000 krone note: Danish party
Worth around 135 at current exchange rates, the party argues that the note is of little use to Danish citizens and primarily benefits criminals. The ECB has printed about a billion 200 notes anticipating a large demand as the 500 note will not be updated on May 28,2019 when the updated 100 and 200 banknote are issued.






Norway has not produced a new 1000kr banknote since 2005. The old notes are gradually being retired as they are worn out. A new 100kr banknote will be issued in the last quarter of 2019.

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