Should one hate one's enemies?

Quote: FrGamble

Love is about much more than salvation for Christianity. Love is the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God here and now, a foretaste of Heaven if you will. God is love, so when we love and experience love we are encountering the presence of God. Jesus makes clear throughout the Gospels that God pours out this love like the dewfall, the rain, or like sunshine - on all human beings.

To paraphrase the incomparable Victor Hugo: "?????????!!!

To quote someone else: Two people separated by a common language.

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For us faith and works go together, you can't have one without the other.

You're dead wrong. You can have good actions without the taint of faith.

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This is fairly common sense, I can't love you and then treat you like I hate you at the same time.

It should stand to reason. But the Christian "love" is not love at all. It's hatred, disgust, anger and oppression. You can't get a victim to cooperate, let their guard down or even be surprised if you tell them "I'm out to get you." Instead you say "I love you," or something like that.

It's uncanny how, when stripped down to essentials, there are so many parallels between Christianity and George Orwell's 1984. The difference being mostly of degree, as Christianity has never quite reached a full totalitarian tilt (yet). It came closest during the Inquisition, I think. Remember in 1984 where dissidents were sent to be tortured, brainwashed and eventually executed? The Ministry of Love.

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There are many reasons for why people do not believe in Jesus.

It would be irrational not to believe in Jesus. one may as well not believe in Columbus or in Stalin. Of course I believe in Jesus. I believe he lived around the time of Julius Caesar, Augustus and perhaps Tiberius I. He may have preached much of what he's been credited with in the Bible, or near enough. He caused quite the commotion in Judea at the time. Eventually he was executed, rather unfairly even for the standards of the time. And like every other man who ever lived he has been dead since then.

There is enough documentary evidence to prove this. Why wouldn't I believe it?

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Therefore a proper understanding of love your enemies and the love of Jesus Christ is not intolerance but rather freedom.

My standard for judging the sincerity of a statement is to look at what the people making it actually do about it. Freedom ranks pretty low in Christian priorities, except as an Orwellian anti-concept meaning "Christian Supremacy." This is far more evident in US rabid Christians, but it's prevalent in all the branches, sub-branches and splinters of this cult.

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I'm not arguing that Christians always have lived this out, in fact Vatican II was a watershed moment in recognizing where the love of God truly led us to, namely Religious Freedom (including the freedom to not believe in God).

Point blank: do you believe all the laws of a nation should conform to Christian morality?

Quote: FrGamble

For us faith and works go together, you can't have one without the other.

This deserves further examination.

Not only is this statement flat out wrong, but it's a subtle way of seeming tolerant while trying to force everyone into the Christian mold, whether they fit or not. Further, it's yet another attempt at declaring that everything good comes from Christianity.

I wish you'd realize your religion is not universal, it does not apply to everyone, it is not good for everyone and it is not even very good for anyone given the current state of the world. and this would be true whether or not any kind of deity exists.

Religion has existed as long as humanity. But something happened recently, in historical terms, that has rendered it ever more powerless, as it has rendered it largely unnecessary. Two things, actually, the rise of republican governments (NOT, I say again, NOT the republican Party) and the Industrial Revolution. But that's fodder for another post.

Quote: Nareed

Christian "love" is not love at all. It's hatred, disgust, anger and oppression. You can't get a victim to cooperate, let their guard down or even be surprised if you tell them "I'm out to get you." Instead you say "I love you," or something like that.

Excellent point. What you read coming
from FrG here, it not what you'll get if
you were to convert. Every cult has one
goal, to get you to join. Once they do,
their real goal manifests itself, and that's
to run your life. They will slowly subject
you to all their rules and regs, and oh yeah,
they will take part of your income as well.

Cults like Mormonism, and Jehovahs Witnesses,
are more obvious about it, but Catholics are
just as bad. They will guilt you into doing
exactly what they want. FrG is here supposedly
selling some kind of 'love' that he can't even
explain without using 1200 extra words that
are meaningless. It's all about getting new people
to fall for the hype. They can't forcibly convert
anymore, those were the golden times for the
Church. Now they have to do it the hard way.

Quote: Nareed

I wish you'd realize your religion is not universal, it does not apply to everyone, it is not good for everyone and it is not even very good for anyone given the current state of the world.

But you miss the point. They don't care
if it's not good for everyone, that's not
their job. A cults goal is to get as many
warm bodies into the fold as possible,
to keep the Church hierarchy in place.

It's a corporation masquerading as a
religion. It's like Coke or McD's. Their
job is to sell you their product, not
caring if it's good for you or not.

This post is turning out to be a gold mine...

Quote: FrGamble

Should I hate my enemies?

Of course not! They are like myself trying to live happy, satisfying, and fulfilling lives. They are seeking acceptance, support, kindness, and ultimately love just like I am.

People like that re not enemies.

Tell me, how does pressing for a law that makes it illegal for me to use a restroom in any way contribute to living a happy, satisfying and fulfilling life? How doe restricting the civil rights of millions of people denote a search for acceptance, support, kindness and love? Lastly, how does attempting to slap transgender, gay, lesbian, bisexual and intersex people with a "MENTALLY ILL" label contribute to any of what you've mentioned?

But the last is telling. We're supposed to be broke, defective, sinful, etc. I guess it gives many Christians some satisfaction to find one or more groups whoa re even more broken, more defective and much more sinful than they are So much the better if they can oppress these groups and call it "love." No fanatics are more cruel than those claiming to act in God's name. No matter how horrible, hurtful, harmful or murderous their actions are, they can consider themselves righteous. Like the Crusaders often did.

We can be thankful religion has been tamed in the West, and that even the self-righteous fanatics hesitate before actually urging, never mind performing, any actual violent actions. And that the law would fall on them, lately at least, if they dared.

Quote: Nareed

We can be thankful religion has been tamed in the West, and that even the self-righteous fanatics hesitate before actually urging, never mind performing, any actual violent actions. And that the law would fall on them, lately at least, if they dared.

I've said this again and again. There is no doubt
that the Church would forcibly thrust their
beliefs on all of us if the law didn't prevent it.

It's all about power, has nothing to do with a
god that doesn't exist. This is my favorite line
line from Angels & Demons. There a fight
for power in the Church, and a hired assassin
is warning the hero that he's up against
absolute ruthlessness.

I'm sorry I am in the midst of moving and haven't been able to follow threads too closely or respond timely. The posts, especially from Nareed, deserve and demand to be addressed so forcibly is her point made.

Quote: Nareed

Point blank: Do you believe all the laws of a nation should conform to Christian morality?

Yes. However, I don't think this means what you think it means. The basic and fundamental moral law for all Christians is the inestimable dignity of every human person. Every human person regardless of their race, sex, color, creed, sexual orientation, crime, health, etc. is a child of God infinitely loved by our Heavenly Father. How then you might ask would a nation that conforms to Christian morality view or legislate regarding same-sex relationships or transgender persons?

First of all there would not be any laws that would not allow someone to use the restroom. I know you meant the restroom you choose to use. I think it might be best not to legislate anything at all in this regard and allow someone obviously dressed as a man or a woman to use that restroom. At the local University I noticed that they have installed gender neutral bathrooms now, but they only fit one person at a time. Maybe this could be a solution at institutions or places where those who are transgendered ask for it and it is easily feasible for the business or institution. However, I am not sure how the transgendered community thinks of gender neutral bathrooms. In regards to those who love each other who are of the same-sex I see no reason why a government following Christian morality would not grant those couples the legal status and rights they would want. When it comes to children I think it makes sense to try first and foremost to allow every child to have a mom and a dad. I have seen and continue to see in my own parish amazing same-sex couples and single parents raise wonderful children and I have seen married couples do an awful job. However, I think the default that nature and nature's God has clearly set up is that it is best for a child to be raised by their biological mother and father who are in an unbreakable covenant of love called marriage. The closer we get to this ideal for the good of the child should be the clear preference, while not excluding other possibilities. Finally, I am not sure where you get the idea that Christian morality would call the GBLT community "mentally ill". You might be referring to the unfortunate language of the Catechism that calls homosexual attraction "intrinsically disordered". This is just to say that the sexual attraction of men or women to their own sex is not in accord with the natural order of things. It is not a judgment of illness or even sinfulness, which the Catechism makes perfectly clear.

This leads me to attempt to correct some poor theology. No one is more broken or sinful than another. As St. Paul says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Or better yet Jesus' advice to "remove the beam from your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from your brother's eye." So for the Christian it is first and foremost about knowing that we are all in the same boat and that God loves us and saved us. It doesn't matter what you sins, brokenness, weakness, or defects are - all that matter is God's love is greater.

I agree fanatics are cruel but you are sadly mistaken. The ones who claim to believe in no God are far more worse than any claiming to act in God's name. A quick glance at history will bear this out. I find it really amazing that you and others keep dragging up the distant past as if the Catholic Church or Christians in general were chomping at the bit to force people to believe and conform to their way of thinking. Take a look around in the real world and ask yourself who is really desiring to force their beliefs and ideas on others right here and now?

How's that for a point blank answer. Good thing you didn't ask me to go into any explanations.

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The ones who claim to believe in no God are far more worse than any claiming to act in God's name.

You have to be more specific. There are hundreds
of gods, each no better than the next. Are you saying
all the believers in those gods are far better off
than non believers? Or do you mean just your little
god, who was homogenized by lumping a bunch
of old gods together into a more general vanilla
type god, a vague deity that nobody can
relate to or understand. One that can't even get
a cohesive religion together, who's holy book
spawned 3000 various denominations, all claiming
to be the right one.

Those people are better off than those who have
no god. It sure doesn't look that way to us on the
outside watching you all squirm around.

Quote: Evenbob

Or do you mean just your little
god, who was homogenized by lumping a bunch
of old gods together into a more general vanilla
type god, a vague deity that nobody can
relate to or understand.

I really don't see how this contributes anything to the conversation. They are poisonous words that are as usual incorrect. Christianity introduces the unique reality of God becoming fully human in the Incarnation, true God and true man. The person of Jesus Christ changed the world as we know it and came precisely so that finally we had a God we could relate to and understand. Your use of the word "nobody" betrays your unreasonable bias. As I've mentioned numerous times billions of people throughout history and still today, including myself, see in Him not a vague deity but a living person, a savior, a brother, and friend.

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One that can't even get
a cohesive religion together, who's holy book
spawned 3000 various denominations, all claiming
to be the right one.

You do recognize that for over 1,500 years there was only one denomination of Christianity. That is pretty remarkable.

Quote: FrGamble

billions of people throughout history and still today, including myself, see in Him not a vague deity but a living person, a savior, a brother, and friend.

Dan Barker said it took him a decade before
he fully realized the friend he had named Jesus
was totally made up in his head. Never discount
the ability of the human brain to fool itself.

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You do recognize that for over 1,500 years there was only one denomination of Christianity.

For the first 300 years there was the Apostolic Church,
which is undeniable. And you can't call what happened
after the Great Schism to be 'one demonination'. This
is a sore point for my wife. She and her sisters swear
branches of Christianity existed outside of Catholics
all thru the 'Dark Ages' and they were hunted and
prosecuted as heretics.