Even when you show this to an enviro they still will not believe it

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February 20th, 2015 at 6:23:00 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
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My guess is even after you explain this, the math-challenged population of the USA (IOW, about 60%) will still not believe it. I didn't at first, until I saw the numbers. Maybe it should replace those stupid A chasing B math problems in our schools.

Richard and Joseph are replacing their vehicles. Richard drives a F-150 and Joseph drives a Camry. Richard trades in his F-150 which gets 13 MPG for the new aluminum one with an Eco-boost V-6 that gets 17 MPG. Meanwhile, Joseph trades his V-6 Camry which gets 30 MPG for a Prius getting 60 MPG.

They meet each other one day and discuss their new rides. Joseph is somewhat aloof and says how he is saving a lot of gas as he got a boost of 30 MPG. Richard says that he is actually saving more gas than Joseph. Joseph has some friends there and they all laugh at this claim. Richard just smiles and walks away.

Assuming they both drive an average 12,000 miles per year like most people, Richard will save 217 gallons per year and Joseph will save 200.




This shows that or CAFE system is kind of messed up. To make the "average" car makers like to push out a few 60 MPG models to get the average up. But in reality it would be better to get the MPG of the largest vehicles up by a smaller amount if we really want to consume less fuel. Many people cannot replace the F-150 with a small vehicle as they need the utility. But the focus seems to always be on the top end.
The President is a fink.
February 20th, 2015 at 7:36:30 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Yup.

In the truck, you would go from consuming about 920 gallons to 700 and something.

With the car, you would go from 400 gallons to 200 gallons.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 21st, 2015 at 4:32:45 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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Posts: 3687
I first saw this observation years ago. I don't remember the exact numbers for the truck, but it was something like going from 10mpg to 15 mpg. It may have been even less of an improvement than that.

For the car, I remember more clearly, it was going from 30 mpg to 40 mpg. At the time, no mainstream cars got 40 mpg, so the discussion was about which development in fuel efficiency was more valuable.

It was the truck then, too.

The point was the same - it would be better to make what looked like a smaller, less significant looking change to the vehicle with the lower fuel economy.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 21st, 2015 at 7:43:40 PM permalink
1nickelmiracle
Member since: Mar 5, 2013
Threads: 24
Posts: 623
How you like them apples and oranges?
February 22nd, 2015 at 4:59:39 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Dalex64

The point was the same - it would be better to make what looked like a smaller, less significant looking change to the vehicle with the lower fuel economy.


I heard GM saying this about their "mild hybrids." It made an improvement in the truck similar to the example in the OP. The press made fun of them of course, and covered the Prius as a fantastic idea even though it took 100,000+ miles to get your investment back.

Of course, while GM was right they lost the PR war.
The President is a fink.
February 22nd, 2015 at 6:05:28 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
The city near me bought some hybrid busses. They save a lot in fuel costs. However, they have determined that they will never recoup the higher purchase price with these fuel savings over the useful lifetime of the bus, so they will not be purchasing more.

There are more reasons than saving money on gas for buying a hybrid, of course.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 24th, 2015 at 7:42:23 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
regarding return on investment, edmunds reports much shorter times, which would be much less than 100,000 miles. Some of them are even negative, but I don't know what the conditions are for the hybrid costing less than the gas equivalent. They may have been using the tax rebates that are no longer available.

I did my own calculation, a Camry vs a Hybrid Camry.
Difference in price: 3000
mpg: 28 vs 41
annual fuel costs at $3.50/gallon for 12,000 miles: $1500 vs $1024
so, you would save almost $500/year, and would make up the difference in price in a little over 6 years.
a little over 6 years at 12,000 miles is a little over 72,000 miles.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 24th, 2015 at 9:56:13 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Dalex64
regarding return on investment, edmunds reports much shorter times, which would be much less than 100,000 miles. Some of them are even negative, but I don't know what the conditions are for the hybrid costing less than the gas equivalent. They may have been using the tax rebates that are no longer available.


I have heard all kinds of publications twist all kinds of statements to make the cost seem less than it really is. IMHO it is a all numbers. Difference in price vs difference in fuel consumption. I have not heard much about how they are holding up after the miles pile up. 72,000 is a long time to get a payback.
The President is a fink.
February 24th, 2015 at 12:42:53 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
6 years is a very long time for a return on your investment and the 6 years even ignores interest. When I sell energy upgrades to electrical systems 2 years is the sweet spot and very few business's will look at anything over 4 years.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
February 24th, 2015 at 12:56:15 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
When I last bought a car in 2011, the salesperson was really pushing the Prius, hurling stats at me about how much gas I could save.

I simply wasn't interested. My employer pays for my gas (and it turns out I use very little compared to others with the same perk). So fuel savings vs a higher price would give my employer savings, however small, in exchange for me getting stuck with the higher price for the car.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER