Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: FrGamble

I'm tempted to let you stay with the idea that Jesus was spiritually resurrected and chalk it up as a movement in the right direction.

Hold the phone, padre. I never said or implied
that I believe any such thing. I believe he died
and that's that. He wasn't resurrected in any
way shape or form. It's all an urban legend
from the gitgo. Lets cover some old ground.

I don't believe god exists, I don't believe in
sin, I certainly don't believe Jesus came here
to save us from something that doesn't
exist. It's all a nice myth, has a nice ending
and all, but it's a very typical myth.

I just find it interesting that the NT is so
wishy-washy in what it says, that it can't
even convince it's followers to follow
one or two interpretations of what it
contains. There are hundreds and now
a couple thousand offshoots.

Do you know that 1/3 of the clergy of
of the Church of England think there
was no resurrection? How can that be
possible. How can you have the myth
without that?

Quote: Evenbob

Hold the phone, padre. I never said or implied
that I believe any such thing. I believe he died
and that's that. He wasn't resurrected in any
way shape or form. It's all an urban legend
from the gitgo.

Then you are still back where you started with no viable explanation as to why this so called myth of the Resurrection was able to so inspire these early disciples to begin a movement that made such an undeniable impact on human history even unto today. As you mentioned before there were other myths like this one about Jesus and in Jesus' own time there were many false saviors, what made this one so radically different and unstoppable?

Quote:

I don't believe god exists, I don't believe in
sin,

I am of course not in a position to tell you what you believe or what you don't, but in our discussion you seem to be more of a pantheist than an atheist. You often beautifully speak about us and the universe all being one. This leads me to think that you believe in some mystical connection between us, the animals, the planets, and stars. For you it sounds like the universe in its totality is eternal and divine.

You also are for some reason repulsed by the word sin, but you recognize as we all do that there is a problem with humanity. There always has been. We make progress, but we still seem incapable of doing what we know we should and not doing what we know we shouldn't.

Quote:

I just find it interesting that the NT is so
wishy-washy in what it says, that it can't
even convince it's followers to follow
one or two interpretations of what it
contains. There are hundreds and now
a couple thousand offshoots.

A great example of Original Sin. We all want to make up our own minds and come up with interpretations and ideas that are comfortable to us regardless if the facts support us or not. See our above discussion about the so called, "spiritual resurrection".

Quote: Dalex64

I'd like you to explain the violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

A creator violates the first law of thermodynamics.

A big crunch would seemingly violate the laws of thermodynamics. It might recreate the conditions prior to the big bang. Entropy reset button.

We already know that our laws break down close to the big bang, and there is a gap in our theories between dealing with the very large and the very small.

The lack of a science based explaination for events is not proof of a supernatural one.

You have chosen to accept matters of faith and philosophy as fact. I won't do that.

It is true that prior to Plank time there be dragons and that lack of a scientific explanation is not proof of a supernatural one. I explicitly reject any "god of the gaps". However, we can see where science and philosophy lead us to and make decisions based on converging probabilities. This is what we do throughout our life and whether you recognize it or not you chose to accept matters of faith and philosophy as fact on a daily basis.

According to my understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics the universe (as one giant closed system) will eventually come to a state of equilibrium given sufficient time to do so. For reasons I can't explain this is often called by scientists a "heat death", the results of which would be a cold frozen emptiness. If the universe is eternal then that would seem the definition of sufficient time. Yet things are still pretty hot and active around here, there is plenty of energy especially on DT. Heck, there is even someone who is trying to ride 50 miles on a unicycle! This seems to point clearly to me that the universe has not been around for an eternity, but had a finite beginning - at its creation some 13.8 billion years ago.

I have no answer for your observation that creation ex nihilo is indeed a violation of the first law of thermodynamics.

Quote: FrGamble

For reasons I can't explain this is often called by scientists a "heat death", the results of which would be a cold frozen emptiness.

It doesn't mean heat will kill the universe. Rather that heat will die.

Quote:

If the universe is eternal then that would seem the definition of sufficient time.

Entropy is too complicated to discuss in one post. But much of it has to do with probability. there are more probabilities for diffuse heat and disorder, therefore energy exchanges in the universe tend that way.

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I have no answer for your observation that creation ex nihilo is indeed a violation of the first law of thermodynamics.

So to fix a violation to the 2nd Law, you need a creator who can violate the 2nd Law.

Quote: FrGamble

to begin a movement that made such an undeniable impact on human history even unto today.

Again, using reverse engineering doesn't work.
You think you see a creation, so there must be
a creator. You see a successful movement,
therefore it must be based on truth. If it were,
then everybody would see it that way and they
don't. Truth is easy to spot, easy to prove. As
I said, 33% of the clergy of the Church of England
don't support the resurrection anymore. Why
is that if it's so obviously true.

Quote: FrGamble

This leads me to think that you believe in some mystical connection between us, the animals, the planets, and stars. For you it sounds like the universe in its totality is eternal..

It is eternal, I've said it about 50 times, it's
been here forever. Everything is connected,
we are all connected. That's why I used the
example of the cop saving the suicide, he
said he felt he was saving himself. Connected.

Quote: FrGamble

You also are for some reason repulsed by the word sin,

Sin has only one purpose, to control people.
Convince them they are offending god and they
have no place to go with their guilt, except
the Church. That god can be offended is such
an odd concept in itself, it would mean he is
just as petty and truculent as we are. That
describes the Roman gods, who were invented
in the likeness of the men who invented them.

I do find these discussions interesting, though.
I've learned far more than I ever knew about
the religion. My wife would be appalled at this
discussion, she just wants everybody to take
it all for granted and that's that.

Did it happen yet? This Easter thing? Its been quite cold here and I've not been venturing out much 'cept occasional six mile forays to a grocery store. Saw alot of candy on sale at the grocery store but don't know if that was Easter candy or Valentine's day candy. Didn't see any young attractive women in new dresses and new hats, that don't happen much around here. Women were jeans, tattoos and the like, drive pickup trucks and buy beer by the case. Outside the grocery store there are some younger and better dressed women but they are always soliciting funds for some organization that teaches girls not to put out, so I pretty much ignore them.

I know something happened in Copenhagen and I know people in Australia are buying copious quantities of Lindt chocolates, but have their been sales in the USA of chocolate Easter bunnies yet? I need to know because holidays often change what day I have to put out the trash, so you see it is of great personal significance to me.

Quote: FrGamble

Then you are still back where you started with no viable explanation as to why this so called myth of the Resurrection was able to so inspire these early disciples to begin a movement that made such an undeniable impact on human history even unto today.

It was all about ideas.

Let me ask you something: is the resurrection the only or even the main reason people are Christians? Or is there something else involved? Do the ideas in Christianity matter at all?

Quote: Dalex64

We already know that our laws break down close to the big bang, and there is a gap in our theories between dealing with the very large and the very small.

I often wonder what "break down" means here. I suppose it's the application of a set of equations to conditions that render the results plain wrong or meaningless.

For example, let's take the formula for determining the area of a circle: Pi*r^2. Good, next take a square 2 cm on a side and use that formula, assuming the radius to be 1 cm (the distance from the center of the square to each side). The result is 3.1416 sq. cm. and that's plain wrong.

Quote:

The lack of a science based explaination for events is not proof of a supernatural one.

I've been saying this for months :)


There's another thing. Just as protons and neutrons were found not to be fundamental particles, but made of something smaller, it may be some natural laws are not fundamental. Not that they're made of something else, but rather that they operate under certain conditions. So the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, perhaps, works the way it does only in an expanding universe. I'm not saying to does, but is' a possibility (after all, it works one way in a closed system and a different way in an open system).

Quote: Nareed

Now, should I have my corpse mummified in the traditional fashion with nitron, resin and linen bandages, or embalmed in a more modern way?

I need to do further research on modern methods.

Even the most "advanced" mummification techniques involve removing the brain, after liquefying it, and discarding it. At least they preserve the internal organs in the body late in the New Kingdom... But when resurrection time comes, I'll share the after life with a bunch of brainless Egyptians :) I'll get stuck cleaning up after each flood of the Nile. I'd best take along hundreds of the ceramic or stone stand-ins for servants (I forget what they're called) to help me.

On a serious note, the Egyptian Gods came in trinities: Father, Mother and Son, typically. The First Family, more or less, are Osiris, Ist (or Isis) and Horus. Osiris brings civilization, Seth kills him, Ist resurrects him, Horus vanquishes Seth (but does not kill him).

On a less serious note, I figure they're the ones to worship, because 1) the pharaoh is Horus on Earth (whatever that means) and 2) the sons of Horus watch over the embalmed remains of the dead.

Quote: Nareed

Let me ask you something: is the resurrection the only or even the main reason people are Christians? Or is there something else involved? Do the ideas in Christianity matter at all?

Nareed has hit on something as usual. I kinda
did a while back. Most people seem to be
Christians because it's the thing to do. All
their friends are, they were raised in it, it's like
a big social club going to church on Sunday.
It makes them feel good, they get to connect
with the community, it's a pleasant time.

That's why it's so hard to get them into a discussion
about the religion. They don't think about it,
they take it for granted. Talking about it bores
them to death. Garrison Keillor talks about the
Lutheron's being like this all the time, but most
church goers are. The getting together is whats
important, not the religion.