Cake Equality for all!

Quote: FrGamble

When you first brought this argument up AZ I thought you were right. I thought let's have the free market decide. However, I am really won over by rxwine. It is fine to say to a minority, go build your own country club but it seems like an unfair imposition. What if in the meantime the real estate agents won't sell her the land and the construction companies won't build it. She can't exercise her financial muscle. She could organize boycotts and practice civil disobedience, which will work eventually but what if she was in a small town and nobody thought it was a good cause. She is left out with nothing to do and no where to turn. This seems like a big weakness in letting hard work and the free market overcome these prejudices, the government or courts need to help the discriminated party out at least a little bit.

Yes, the real estate companies might not sell, the construction companies might not build, and the banks might not lend. Sorry to say but my answer is "TOUGH!" When Agusta was build someone took a chance. Someone put up the money. They took decades to build their clout. It is theirs do do with as they please. Yes, the free market means hard work. One party had put it in, the second party did not. The second party then said, "I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE!"

I will use a church example, and a real one at that. My sister married a Jewish guy on his second marriage. The Catholic Church did not care so much that he was not Christian, but the divorce made him a no-go. The Church in effect said, "We can't take your business." Did she sue? Nope. She was quite upset, but she just said, "fine, I don't need this!" and had an outdoor wedding in the park with one of those indie ministers who basically just do weddings. It was nice if a bit hot out. It was two PSU Alums who got married with Pitt University in the background, which was ironic to anyone who remembers their football rivalry pre-1990s.

Now, suppose you have a Church in your small town. Two muslims want to use it for a wedding and they demand you perform it. It does not have to be a Catholic wedding, just use your facilities and your minister license to officiate. Do you still believe the government or courts need to help the discriminated party out at least a little bit?

Quote: AZDuffman

The Catholic Church did not care so much that he was not Christian, but the divorce made him a no-go. The Church in effect said, "We can't take your business."

I said basically the same thing and the
padre said 'no, Bob, you couldn't be
more wrong. The Church welcomes
divorced people.'

Quote: Evenbob

I said basically the same thing and the
padre said 'no, Bob, you couldn't be
more wrong. The Church welcomes
divorced people.'

I will let the Padre correct me if I am wrong, but as I keep saying here "divorce" is not the issue but "remarriage" before the other partner is dead. In years past I am guessing his being Jewish would be a no-go.

Quote: AZDuffman

In years past I am guessing his being Jewish would be a no-go.

It's not that long ago. It wasn't till 1994
that Pope Paul issued the mea culpa
for the role of the Church in the Holocaust.

"Some critics consider the statement to be
irresponsible, as it absolved the Church itself
of any blame."

Quote: AZDuffman

Yes, the real estate companies might not sell, the construction companies might not build, and the banks might not lend. Sorry to say but my answer is "TOUGH!"

Could you just charge people twice as much, or pay workers half of what you pay others for the same amount of work based on who they are? Teachers would only have to teach students of the same color or religion and leave the rest ignorant if they want. Only hire white people, and be able to reject everyone else wholesale? Only rent to whites or Christians or Muslims, or atheists. Something along that line? Only build wheelchair access to the bathrooms in town if you want to?

If you're going to discriminate, on what they have access to, might as well go whole hog?

Quote: AZDuffman

I will let the Padre correct me if I am wrong, but as I keep saying here "divorce" is not the issue but "remarriage" before the other partner is dead. In years past I am guessing his being Jewish would be a no-go.

Remember the adage that if Evenbob says something about the Catholic Church he is wrong. You are correct remarriage is the issue, but let's not derail this thread.

Quote: rxwine

Could you just charge people twice as much, or pay workers half of what you pay others for the same amount of work based on who they are? Teachers would only have to teach students of the same color or religion and leave the rest ignorant if they want. Only hire white people, and be able to reject everyone else wholesale? Only rent to whites or Christians or Muslims, or atheists. Something along that line? Only build wheelchair access to the bathrooms in town if you want to?

If you're going to discriminate, on what they have access to, might as well go whole hog?

Pay people different for the same amount of work? ABSOLUTELY, and welcome to the real world! One job I had I was making $2 more per hour than at least several of the rest on the team! Same work, but I made a better deal for myself.

Teachers only teaching who they want? Only if they could negotiate it with their employer. Until we get the government out of the education game this will probably not happen.

Only hire white people? Sure. Or only black, mexican, asian, or whatever else you choose. If you are paying them then you should have the right to set whatever qualifications you choose.

IOW, I believe in total freedom of association.

Quote: AZDuffman

Pay people different for the same amount of work? ABSOLUTELY, and welcome to the real world! One job I had I was making $2 more per hour than at least several of the rest on the team! Same work, but I made a better deal for myself.

Teachers only teaching who they want? Only if they could negotiate it with their employer. Until we get the government out of the education game this will probably not happen.

Only hire white people? Sure. Or only black, mexican, asian, or whatever else you choose. If you are paying them then you should have the right to set whatever qualifications you choose.

IOW, I believe in total freedom of association.

Needless to say, I find the ideas appalling. It's a couple parts India caste system with no government protection for whatever the minority population might be. no wage protections means rise of the labor unions (also freedom of association) and robber barons. More extreme wealth disparity, and since actual work isn't rewarded, like it should be, some can be worked to death while barely making enough to live.

This would be after enough time had passed and our current system had disappeared.

If you read some of the NYT archives (the ones where the it's a picture of the page it's so old), you find stories of people working multiple jobs not making enough at any of them to advance their station, basically caught in a trap -- using up all their hours of their days except for sleeping and eating and putting all their wages in rent, in some cases rent controlled by their own employers. Like I said a trap.

Quote: rxwine

Needless to say, I find the ideas appalling. It's a couple parts India caste system with no government protection for whatever the minority population might be. no wage protections means rise of the labor unions (also freedom of association) and robber barons. More extreme wealth disparity, and since actual work isn't rewarded, like it should be, some can be worked to death while barely making enough to live.

This would be after enough time had passed and our current system had disappeared.

If you read some of the NYT archives (the ones where the it's a picture of the page it's so old), you find stories of people working multiple jobs not making enough at any of them to advance their station, basically caught in a trap -- using up all their hours of their days except for sleeping and eating and putting all their wages in rent, in some cases rent controlled by their own employers. Like I said a trap.

What is "actual work" exactly?